[December]

The setup of a story with a villainous main character can sometimes be different from a traditional rise of a hero type thing, and it's important to have a balance between steamrolling things and still being tense and interesting.

• Do you set the story up where there's clearly a downfall coming to them because of something in their personality and it gradually comes up, like Macbeth or Scarface or something like that?
• Do you give them the same amount of obstacles that you'd give a heroic underdog type?
• Do you put them against traditional good guys or against people that are even worse?
• Does it change some if you're writing smut or if you're making something on the fly?

There are a lot of possible answers but... what's yours?  Or if you're a reader, what kind of things do you like?

[ironkobe]

Form my perspective good is not need to be an underdog, so Breaking Bad, Scarface, or North Korea.  In every case you are doing evil things to make up for your lack of strength.  I mean is that the point of cheating, to overcome your weakness in the face of a stronger power.  If you are going to tell a story of a Scareface type rise to power and perhaps a crashing fall, yes you would need something or someone to overcome.  The exception would be if you are doing the monster type heel or evil champ. 

If you are writing about Awesome Kong or Big Van Vader, you don't make them weak.  Sure take some time put over that their opposition has some ability, but then it is matter of the monster crushing them.  The story is then about how much they enjoy crushing their foe, the screams of agony, and how they don't need to do this to win, but will any way. 

I am now kinda tempted to do something with a good old fashion Tennessee Chickenshit heel from wrestling.  In the grand Southern Pro wrestling tradition there was a class of evil wrestlers who were primarily to scared to fight, which made their choice of careers odd, but focused on cheating and interference to win all the time.  Might be fun to do sometime.   

[Ginny38]

I take from the discussion so far, the question is more of a "villain" as the protagonist (telling it almost with the villainous 'bad guy' as the focus of the story rather than the "good guy").

MY stories almost always come from the opposite perspective (the "normal" if you will) but I still enjoy reading well written stories no matter what. It's often fun to read a story in which the bad guy turns good (a staple in pro wrestling, although sometimes their flip-flopping back and forth can be dizzying) - either due to a traumatic event or "seeing the light".

But I don't like to telegraph what's coming....or if I "foreshadow" an event, it often turns out differently than how the reader might expect. I sometimes take perverse delight in upsetting expectations in my stories but usually the heroine/hero survives into the next story (only to suffer additional travails and indignities). Assuming these events build character, after 10 or more stories, my men/women have terrific "character".

Evil triumphing over good is not going to sell a lot of books (or tv shows or films) but it's almost ALWAYS required to happen before good can prevail in the end. (I suppose one example of this would be James Bond films where the bad guy almost always beats Bond in their first encounter only to fall in the end. It makes for more drama although after 20-30 films you almost expect to see it and it loses some of the dramatic impact).

In a story, the "protagonist" (i.e., the primary or leading character) whether he/she is good or evil, almost is required to overcome some obstacles (otherwise why would anyone bother to write about them) before they achieve "success" (whether it's Olympic gold or a successful crime).

Failure not only builds character, it also helps to 'perfect your craft' (whatever that craft may be) so it's kinda a requirement for telling a story - look at the ancient Greek mythology where even the "Gods" had to overcome obstacles/problems. If THEY had to do it, we all must have to....

Think I probably wandered off topic a bit, so I'll stop here. (If so, I apologize)

[LoveSexyJobbers]

People who know me know I do Pro wrestling Squashes , & in my top story series , Watching my Partner get Destroyed , it started out with the main characters , Ana & Chrissy , The Swedish Bombshells , 2 sexy blondes who were the tag champs who faced the new heel team of german twins , Jule & Zule , known as German Muscle & the story was supposed to be 3 stories (1) German Muscle DEMOLISH the Bombshells in a non title match (2) German Muscle DEMOLISH the Bombshells to win the tag titles (3) German Muscle DEMOLISH the Bombshells in the rematch , but one thing led to another , wanted to extend the story 1 or 2 more & after a chat with an ex member , I added a story in between the 1st slaughter & second slaughter & a girl I used as the Ladies Champion , Maritza Martini got a lot of feedback on people LOVING HER  so I added her into the storyline & it escalated from there as I am approaching 90 stories in that series , will try to get to 100 , but throught the series now , the main characters are German Muscle , my powerful mean heel duo who have all this series been pretty much ANNIHALATING every precious sexy good girl team in their way ( 1 upset loss only ) & the ladies champion now is a brute named Polish Power who SLAUGHTERED Maritza so bad , Maritza has been gone since ( vacation , wedding , baby ? ) & Polish Power along with German Muscle are featured almost every story & right now on another site , I write sexual stories featuring numerous heel teams DESTROYING , VIOLATING , & DEFEATING hapless jobber good girl teams in the ring.

I am just showing some love to the heels of the sport , especially on the ladies side as in the WWE , Impact Wrestling , & other Indy feds out there , the promoters DON'T GIVE A SHIT & feed us the same SHIT ,GOOD GIRLS WIN , BAD GIRLS LOSE , & it doesn't matter 1 single Iota what the size , power , experience levels are , they will let a girl in her 2nd match that is 5'1 - 101 lbs & still looks completely lost in the ring , defeat a 12 year veteran who is way bigger , way stronger , & loses more knowledge every time she trims her nails than the cutie good girl is still a ong way from having , not too mention that sometimes the precious good girls offense is so pathetic it's laughable , she could not hurt a baby or break an egg with her offense she is doing but ' OH FUCKING SURE , SHE CAN BEAT THAT VETERAN WHO IS 5'8 - 195 LBS , it is just not believable & it takes away from any credibility anyone has like right now in the WWE , Tamina , the tough bodyguard of little AJ Lee , but how can we take her seriously when she is losing to Eva Marie via a rollup , it's one thing for the upset , but WHERES THE REMATCH SEEING TAMINA DEMOLISHING & DEFEATING Eva Marie ? & also what else do we have , Monday Night Raw , Survivor Series rematch , let's see here , Natalya bodyslams Tamina . stumbles over to her corner & tags in JoJo who enters the ring , pauses , then covers Tamina for the 1-2-3 , THAT'S YOUR F***ING TOUGH ASS BODYGUARD , PINNED 10 SECONDS AFTER TAKING THE WELL KNOWN FINISHER KNOWN AS A BODYSLAM .

Impact wrestling , Lei"D Tapa is also the bodyguard , but what has she done , she has been in what 3 matches , 1 being the gut check match she lost , other than that what , clotheslining ODB after a match , for these 2 to be top heels , give them Squashes & not be 2nd fiddle , let Tamina , DEMOLISH the likes of JoJo & Eva Marie & other local girls , let Lei'D Tapa squash a few girls who wrestle in florida like Santana Garret , Justine Silver, & Chelsea Diamond & for Impact Wrestling , they are HUGE on GOOD GIRL WINS - BAD GIRL LOSES , look at Madison Rayne , remember when she lost the title , she never won again until she disappeared & now , taDum , she's back as a good girl & has yet to lose .

The promoters need to learn that if you take all the tiny kids out of the equation , THEY DON'T DRIVE TO THE SHOWS & PAY TO GET IN , most fans actually prefer to see the Bad Girls win & the fact that GOOD GIRLS WIN - BAD GIRLS LOSE to what seems like Good Girls win an insane like 89 out of every 100 matches is why Women's Wrestling after 10 years is STILL A SPECIAL ATTRACTION & WE STILL CAN'T GET AN ALL-LADIES FED ON TV THAT LASTS MORE THAN A YEAR .

I know what will work & since the real pro feds & their match outcomes are EPIC FAILS , I will continue to DEMOLISH every sexy precious good girl in the matches I write almost every match & the Heels will be the focus & I will do it right , 6'0 - 235 muscle monster will DEMOLSIH a 5'2 - 107 lb sweet & naïve Barbie Doll , academic pins to boot as 1 last rant here to promoters everywhere " ROLLUPS ARE A LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME LAME HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE  HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE  HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE  WAY TO END A MATCH & in Japan , A GERMAN F***ING SUPLEX , it's a glorified suplex , I think a piledriver onto the ring bell , an electrocution , or getting hit by a car in the parking lot should result n the pin more than a F***ING GERMN SUPLEX .

I COULD GO ON FOREVER , BUT HERES TO THE HEELS -!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!                            

[December]

Form my perspective good is not need to be an underdog, so Breaking Bad, Scarface, or North Korea.  In every case you are doing evil things to make up for your lack of strength.  I mean is that the point of cheating, to overcome your weakness in the face of a stronger power.  If you are going to tell a story of a Scareface type rise to power and perhaps a crashing fall, yes you would need something or someone to overcome.

That's a good point, MacBeth, Wolf of Wall Street, lots of characters have stories where people just gradually start doing bad stuff to stay alive and it just piles on.

I take from the discussion so far, the question is more of a "villain" as the protagonist (telling it almost with the villainous 'bad guy' as the focus of the story rather than the "good guy").

MY stories almost always come from the opposite perspective (the "normal" if you will) but I still enjoy reading well written stories no matter what. It's often fun to read a story in which the bad guy turns good (a staple in pro wrestling, although sometimes their flip-flopping back and forth can be dizzying) - either due to a traumatic event or "seeing the light".

I am reading a lot of my old material and I noticed that I have a lot of stories where the main good guy and main bad guy have similar backgrounds and experiences and feel like they come from the same world... so they can give that "you and me, we aren't so different" speech or know more about the world than the hero. Like The Recruit or Goldeneye. Or the old Spiderman movies.

But I don't like to telegraph what's coming....or if I "foreshadow" an event, it often turns out differently than how the reader might expect. I sometimes take perverse delight in upsetting expectations in my stories but usually the heroine/hero survives into the next story (only to suffer additional travails and indignities). Assuming these events build character, after 10 or more stories, my men/women have terrific "character".

That's also what I'm used to doing - the more a character suffers generally the more interesting they will be. That's a really good post.

Reopen your website

This is interesting and one of the best antihero films I ever saw parts of was Mel Gibson's Pay Back.  Mel Gibson played a person so messed up that evil was his middle name.  I could not stand to watch the entire movie so I don't know how it ends.  No offence Mel but I hope your character got his head blown off in the end.  But it was one of the best films of this type!

Hahaha. Mel's character in Payback is probably the nicest version of that character that's ever been in a movie.  

I am just showing some love to the heels of the sport , especially on the ladies side as in the WWE , Impact Wrestling , & other Indy feds out there , the promoters DON'T GIVE A SHIT & feed us the same SHIT ,GOOD GIRLS WIN , BAD GIRLS LOSE , & it doesn't matter 1 single Iota what the size , power , experience levels are...

THAT'S YOUR F***ING TOUGH ASS BODYGUARD , PINNED 10 SECONDS AFTER TAKING THE WELL KNOWN FINISHER KNOWN AS A BODYSLAM.

 

That's pro wrestling everywhere though. They don't really have one-sided fights because the audience gets bored. Everything is very 50/50, even the all-star top guys lose all the time. Believe it or not I'm not that into pro wrestling although I kinda sorta write it here. Even the "talented" girls are uncoordinated, and they're always feuding about one girl being jealous that the other girl is prettier than them.

My gf in high school got into fights over all kinds of dumb shit, you'd think they could be more creative for a TV show where you can make anything up.

[Sandman13]

I don't think I've given it nearly as much thought as some of you guys have (hey Ginny! Still miss the old site!) but I like my villain just so mean, selfish and dumb that hopefully the reader is glad when she gets her comeuppance. For me the fun is stacking the deck so it seems the bad girl has to win and then, usually through her own stupidity or cruelty, the good girl eventually wins out.
But just because I write stories a certain way is not to say I don't enjoy another viewpoint, or that I think the good girl always has to win. Different perspectives are great and there are a lot of writers here that I always like to read.

[Nutmeg]

A few thoughts: In regards to pro matches, yeah the 80’s style squash matches are a bit stale to modern audiences.  Couple that with the view that women’s wrestling is a minor league that most fans seem to tolerate at best, and it really makes a female squash match into a bathroom break.  I think there is also some cost issues now since paying someone to purely job who is a name is not cheap. Or you get a cheap guy who really stinks up the ring, which might work for house shows, not so much on the national TV audience.

The character in Payback Mel plays is not allowed to use the name Parker for a reason And I think if Donald Westlake was still alive, Jason Stratham would not have been able to use it either in the recent movie.  Actually the only adaptation of his works that Westlake allowed to use that name while alive were the Darwyn Cooke graphic novels I believe.  The Straight Up edition featuring the original director’s cut of Payback is a far better version of that film IMO.

As far as bad guys, I prefer shades of grey. Not the crap book series, but varying degrees of good and evil to use those terms. I find the Punisher far more interesting than Superman for that reason. I think it is also important to have the protagonist surrounded by people both better morally and worse morally than him/her. If your lead is basically pure evil, it will get tiring after a while.   Evil for evil’s sake wears thin. And really anyone involved with violence as fun or a living likely is not as pure as snow.

There a few ways to achieve this. The bad person trying hard to be good (redemption theme) Unforgiven really is mainly this.  And in that tale there are better human beings, but not a GOOD one per se. William Munny is doing what he does for money and then revenge. Little Bill might keep things quiet but he is not doing it out of any grand goodness in his heart.

Or the classic revenge idea. The Punisher, Parker, Drake (From Dan Marlowe’s books) are all not nice people out for revenge doing not nice things to less than nice people.  Even the police tend to be more corrupt cops or locally elected scumbag sheriffs rather than shining examples of police.

Sometimes an author can evolve a bad guy into being more palatable. Drake becomes a secret agent of all things and Max Allan Collins’  “Quarry” turns a hitman into a hitman protection service.   But still you realize you are not dealing with nice men and at best, the lesser of two evils.

The best take I have seen on a “bad” protagonist is the Jennifer Blood comic book series. It has had two natural stopping points so far. The opening six issues written by Garth Ennis shows us a tale of revenge. Jennifer, her father killed and her mother driven to suicide by her uncles, fakes her death and becomes a housewife. Married to a birdwatcher with a son and daughter, she is the picture of suburban bliss. Outside of this needing bloody vengeance of course. Which, long story short, she gets. So it is all nice and neatly tied up happily ever after.

But then the fallout occurs. A bunch of dead people with relatives, friends and curious police. Loose ends to be tied up which creates more bodies. And at first we see Jennifer is very conscious she is not a “good person” But just one more week and she can get rid of the arsenal in her basement and she can stop drugging her family so she can go out at night. But that day doesn't come. She finds herself doing worse and worse things to “protect her family”. Her husband’s old flame returns to start an affair, so she sets her ablaze. To protect her family. Blows up her nosy neighbor’s house framing him for her killings? To protect her family. Stabs her husband in the throat when he finds her diary and is planning to call the cops? Her kids do come first. And if you think she is wrong, well you just don’t love your kids !

What makes a story like that work is the fact the reader gradually figures out that our narrator may not be the heroine of the story. It is much more appealing for the reader to come to a conclusion versus being told outright. And the narrator may honestly believe themselves to be in the right so it can be quite a debate what is the correct conclusion.

[sinclairfan]

Although obviously not a catfight situation, one of the most important stories in early modern Western literature is bad guy vs bad guy.  In Christopher Marlowe's "Tamerlane", the Ottoman Turk Bajazet is threatening  to overrun Europe, and the barbarian Tamerlane saves the day by emerging from the steppes to slaughter Bajazet.  Verdi's opera "Bajazet" is based on the same (true) story.

[Sandman13]

Talking about ambiguous characters reminds me of Elmore Leonard and his stories. His heroes are not usually all good nor are his villains all bad. If you watch "Justified" you know what I mean but it's even more apparent in his novels.
But for me, that's actual literature and our little corner of that is something else. Don't ask me what, though. I still wonder why the whole world of catfighting holds such allure to me.

[Ravenstein]

I love a bad character and my stories. I have a thing for a bad character. I have a bigger thing for a bad characters her mean ass kicked.