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Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos

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Offline Martin Beswick

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My excitement for fantasy catfight and wrestling scenarios started way back in the 80's, a truly magical time for this thing of ours. My switch was first flipped by scenes in movies and apartment wrestling pictorials in the mainstream wrestling magazines.  The cliche but still potent fantasies of two ladies fighting for the same lover or their boss or a prize/bragging rights.  The stare down, struggling, trash talk, and ultimate victory happening while someone (often "their prize") or even a group of people are watching, cheering, and likely getting turned on.

So here's something that I find fascinating when I asses the majority of scripted catfight/fantasy videos that have been released over the last, uh, 30 years or so.

Mainstream movies, tv shows, music videos, photo spreads, and even the porn videos continue to depict scenes of ladies fighting in front of "their prize" or an excited group of onlookers. That's part of the thrill -- the build-up to the action, the reactions, and the knowing that there will be some manner of spoils for the winner.

And yet, with remarkable exception, it seems like fetish video producers very rarely feature anyone in their videos who isn't actually fighting/wrestling - and almost never have any kind of scenario established beyond about 20 seconds of half-assed improved dialogue.

California Wildcats was one of the first companies to start producing content for fight fans back in the 90's and they really leaned into the stories and set-ups. The first 1/3 of their high concept scenarios was often devoted to backstory and motivation, building anticipation to the inevitable action... but while the acting and production value hasn't aged that well, I have to say that I miss the added sizzle created by having at least some build-up to create a fantasy followed by the visceral thrills of having others in the room watching and reacting to what's happening.  Two husbands cheering on their wives wrestling in the living room, the hotel room tryst interrupted by the other woman, all manner of amazonian/tribal rituals and such.   JM Rolen, early Crystal video, and a few others had similar approaches - and there were some fun fantasy photosets online for a while - but it all seems to be out of fashion now.

So why didn't or don't other producers follow the CW lead and feature slightly larger casts and/or take a little time to establish stakes in their videos? Ultimately I just want to see two ladies tussling of course, but I can't help but wish that sometimes those scenes had just a little more lead-up and some other folks involved.  Part of the turn-on of this fantasy, at least for me, is knowing that I and/or others are right there watching it happen with our own eyes .. and that it's so heated because of a specific reason, history, or prize ... yet most modern fight videos limited to just the two ladies.  It's not uncommon IRL for like minded couples to make arrangements so that their wives can wrestle in front of their husbands (or vice versa) so that's clearly a common pursuit ... so why isn't that represented in more modern videos?

Is it a financial thing?  Producers can't justify hiring a 3rd performer for a video, especially if said performer isn't actually wrestling or fighting?
Is it an avatar thing?  Meaning that people would prefer to just watch the video and imagine themselves in the scenario without the distraction of seeing someone else take that space?
Or is just something that fans don't really need or want to see in their fantasy catfight/wrestling videos anymore?

I guess ultimately I'm just saying that I'd love to see more modern producers taking a risk and leaning even more into the scenarios and 3rd parties - anyone else have opinions?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 02:51:39 AM by Martin Beswick »

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Offline wasteland1952

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 05:19:58 AM »
I tend to agree with you, but I have no earthly idea why the change.

You mentioned the Crystal videos.  I used to like their video magazines.  They contained several real catfights, but also a scripted fight that had a back story, even if most of the time, the back stories were pretty short.  Still, it was great to see the reasons for the fight that you knew was coming up, plus the immediate pre-fight confrontation, and then the fight itself.

Great topic.

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Offline snw

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 01:11:32 PM »
In the old fighting females magazine they contained photos with the story of why they were fighting along with many times who was there. The dialogue during a fight is one of my favorite things. Such as when one begins to gain the advantage and begins to taunt the other for the benefit of the people watching.  Or the losing girl responds to being taunted. Knowing why the girls are fighting along with trash talk to benefit that reason. One of the best parts of the catfight story is the back and forth banter. My favorite is fighting for a man that is watching the fight as the superior woman takes control the taunting is the biggest turn on for me especially if it includes all attending in the conversations. A girl gaining an advantage and verbally adding to that by engaging the guy as she beats the other woman is so hot cause the losing girl knows what he’s thinking as she is defeated by her rival. The old apartment wresting mags included a story and most pictorials that accompanied them were for videos that were for sale at the time.

          The one from the fighting females was Jackie from Joan Wise and I can’t remember but I think she was fighting Treena. It was about the guy Treena was marrying having a bachelor party and she was going to wrestle another woman for him. The other woman turned out to be Jackie who was his old gf. Treena did not know that was who she was going to be pitted against. It turned in to a one sided loss for Treena as Jackie taunted and turned on the men watching at the expense of the fiancé whom she totally embarrassed. One of the best lay outs I’d seen as far as pics and story. Of course that’s my favorite setup and out come story line but it was a story involving a storyline. The pics itself didn’t picture the guys just the girls but the dialogue was with the guys so seeing them physically wasn’t needed. Just to know they were watching and what they were saying and thinking made it better IMHO.

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Offline Bear

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2020, 10:10:08 PM »
Being you asked, I'll offer my opinion.  Frankly I've  found most of the build-ups to a scenario catfight to be pretty cheesy.  Not only is the acting bad, but the script is usually worse.  Some of the reasons for the conflict are so outlandish, that it makes one laugh.  Most of the time, I fast forward through the build-up, if there is one and get straight to the action.  Every once in awhile, however, you might come across one where the build up is worth it.  Through Rockin Roxanne I came across a Kristie Etzold vs. Tanya match awhile back.  The build-up to their confrontation is enjoyable, not incredulous, and does in fact, enhance the watching experience.  But IMO that's more the exception than the rule.  In all honesty, I'm perfectly happy with the two competitors facing each other at the start and commencing on the command to "fight" or "wrestle." 

Also, I think that trash talking can be both a turn-on and a turn-off.  It really depends on how it's done.  I prefer argumentative exchanges during the contest; I'm not into taunting.  But that's me.    I\

What I've always liked about movie catfights is that the build-ups are believable, well-acted and sometimes last for awhile before the actual fight starts.  The build-ups to fights in such movies as Destry Rides Again, From Russia With Love, Dragoon Welles Massacre, etc., etc., are arousing and exciting because the anticipation builds and builds until things explode.   It just doesn't happen often enough and well enough in FvF productions to suit me.   That's all.

Thanks for reading. 

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Offline maine516

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2020, 03:18:22 AM »
Interesting discussion.  My interest in catfighting precedes the 80's so I remember California Wild and purchased many of their very first videos.  I didn't purchase them for the scripts, certainly not for the acting, nor for seeing 3rd party watchers, especially guys.  I purchased them to watch the 2 gorgeous women involved.  I get that there are real life scenarios were couples or friends will gather to watch 2 wives or 2 girlfriends wrestle or have a rules catfight for fun or prizes, but that personally doesn't interest me and I have no desire to see that introduced into the erotic catfight or erotic titfight videos that I wish to watch.  I just want to watch the 2 women and I like the fantasy concept (and imagination) of the women having totally uninhibited battles in personal privacy.  That's just my personal taste.

I think there is an obvious distinction between what can be done in movies with a real budget and real actors versus what a catfight industry producer can provide.  So, yes, I'm sure cost is an issue in most cases regarding paying for 3rd parties who are only watchers.  I know that even having to pay for a spouse who wants to  travel with the model can be an issue, and is sometimes a barrier to getting models to travel from further locations.  I also think having 3rd parties present in these scripted productions can be a distraction to the models, certainly to the camera person doing the filming, and to customers viewing the videos.  Like Bear, I agree too that many build-ups in producer productions come across as cheesy and most of these models are not very good actors.  On the contrary however, a build up that is well-scripted in a movie with good acting can be very exciting and certainly can add to the interest level of the catfights.

I think Fighting Dolls has 3rd party watchers when they film their live event tournaments.  It's usually guys watching and they have most likely paid to attend.  They also film some matches I believe where another of their female wrestling cast will act as a referee during the contest.

One thing I would personally like to see producers make would be 4 women erotic catfight or ttitfight matches, 2 against 2 simultaneously or a last woman standing format, but here again I know that cost is an issue.  Paying for 4 models at once and selling for the same price as 2 women is not usually affordable.   I would be willing to pay more occasionally for 4 women matches because I know it cost mores.  But they could come up with some whole new interesting scenarios with this.

Lastly, as to build ups with producer scripted videos, I'm okay with them if they are fairly brief, like a minute or two, and simple and straightforward so that they have less chance of straying into cheesy territory due to a lack of writing and or acting talent.



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Offline jessiefite

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2020, 06:02:39 AM »
Yes, I'm an attention whore.  That is why I find the Carolina Catfights format very appealing in which to fight.  Lots of men
watching and verbally giving their input.  Although I ultimately decided not to fight on film, that was one of two producers
who had me actually considering doing so.  Why fight if no one else cares what happens?

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Offline catfightlover40

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2020, 01:45:54 PM »
There's isn't a nice way to say this, so I won't tiptoe around it, erotic products rely on the viewership/readership being people who view sex as something that gratifies them mainly/exclusively or as something that's mutually beneficial. That's the basis for videos and stories being produced where 90% of the time the same action is provided as there's no alternative. It depends on one's own sexual liberation how diverse they want to experience the subject, and well, we guys usually don't look for different.

The second sore subject is the manticore that is the tug of war between people banning erotic productions and between those who earn their living by less than honorable means. I'm talking about how first the Italian, later the Russian mob sank their teeth into the porn business. One big reason for only offering strict fight videos comes from the fact that where guys openly brag about the conquests they made among women, all the more is it less likely they'll share what they f*p off to by their lonesome. That as a consequence leaves the products in the era before the internet to a word of mouth, keeping it hush on the user end.

California, in general, was different as it used to be the porn capital of the world. It's undeniably true that broadband was a massive loss to producers, but so was joining Western markets with Eastern ones who in lieu of a long tradition of business practices ruthlessly undercut their older competitors.

That brings me to the difference on Hollywood and the European cinema. Where America in the mid-'70s took a turn and to this day allows, say, a person being gutted on the screen to keep an R rating, but anything other than PG-13 sex would force a movie to X-rated theaters. I'd not say that major productions do a good job of depicting catfights, even if it's not a family-friendly movie because they don't have fetish consultants from our circles. In their interpretation, a catfight is solely about clothes ripping until, to paraphrase Seinfeld here, they reach a moment where they might kiss. Maybe the only person who I'd cite as an exception and who's an ally of the aforementioned Julia Louise-Dreyfus is Tina Fey. She wrote Mean Girls based on her own experience, and it's a very bright window into the psyche on just what can tip women collectively over that requires no input or validation from 3rd parties.

Where eroticism was banned overseas, in sunny Italy gialllos have become a major hit. Before Nordic Noir popularized a platitude of red herrings before a detective eventually wound up with the culprit, Italians did it in multitudes, while also not shying away from inserting sex scenes. Though not a Giallo, just a raunchy sex comedy, my favorite scene came from Spaghetti a Mezzanotte (not the food, the sex comedy) where the wife's clothes are ripped off by a futuristic elevator, and the mistress gets fed up with her wardrobe malfunctions and drags her by the hair into the pool where they have a catfight. Germans, Austrians, and Israelis have also produced sex comedies that featured catfights.

So, overseas, neither "public" demand nor "public" offerings had to account for personal taste outside custom videos (and yet, Japanese producers stay ahead of the curve by taking the risk of producing most fantasies imaginable). Thus nobody followed pioneers into widening content. Webcasting actually made things easier, since that way contributors don't fall under SAG-AFTRA protections. Meaning they can invest in cameras that provide HDR footage and not worry about fundraising 100k to produce high quality story content like most web shows do.
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Offline catfightlover40

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2020, 02:56:22 PM »
Having some form of scripted scenario into a fight build up can be incredibly erotic. The Californian wildcats $600 wagrer where two wives fight for winner takes all prize money is the best example, the newcomer 1 and 2 is not far behind.

Yes the acting is cheesy and not like real film actors but giving the fight a context like that with the husbands watching is what plays to my fantasy 100%

movie makers today have tended to confuse a catfight with a kung fu style fist fight. I love watching bridgitte bardot fight in her western with carnalia ? again a cheesy fight but wow it was a hell of a turn on.

Now if some producer could combine elements of a script and build up and then just let the women fight like from Russia with love we may have something special

I would support anyone doing this well

Claudia Cardinale, and their fight was plot relevant ;) It's pretty telling that even that movie was European made, despite coming out roughly the same time as Kansas City Bomber. MGM didn't shy away forking up enough money with that one, as they did later with All the Marbles. I won't go into detail on why female self-realization through wrestling in the Reagan years lost out to sitcoms featuring stay-at-home mums.

From Russia with love is a bit of funny as an example, since it's not in Fleming's original novel, nor is Bond lamenting on the fact that he signed up to save the Empire and after Suez America totally took over. The producers wanted the scene, and in a later production, as one actress revealed during the Roger Moore era, they were auditioned on their skill of being able to fight.
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Offline DCameron

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2020, 05:59:46 PM »
A few comments:

First, I have always enjoyed the build-up that precedes a good catfight.  Having said that, the build-up needs to be believable (a context that "makes sense" in real-life), not too long (2-3 minutes works for me) and not obviously scripted dialogue (the more naturally direct and catty the better).

Second, I pulled a paperback copy of FRWL off a rather dusty book shelf, and the fight was in that version.  However, since I do not have an original hardback copy I don't know if it was added later or not.

And finally third, in my opinion, for many (probably not all) producers the impact of piracy on revenue (reflected in production costs) has taken its toll on video content, both in build-up and in third-party participation.  I suspect that, for most producers, the longer a video and the more ladies in that video, the more the cost to produce it.  10-15 years ago when piracy was considerably less impactful on sales numbers for a given video release, producers probably had video sales that covered their production costs and provided enough of a profit to encourage them to remain in business.  With piracy now having a "significant" impact on video sales to the producer, unless they have moved to a new business model (sponsorships and very restricted sales distribution) they won't be producing videos much longer.

Only my opinions.

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Offline catfightlover40

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2020, 07:03:01 PM »
A few comments:

First, I have always enjoyed the build-up that precedes a good catfight.  Having said that, the build-up needs to be believable (a context that "makes sense" in real-life), not too long (2-3 minutes works for me) and not obviously scripted dialogue (the more naturally direct and catty the better).

Second, I pulled a paperback copy of FRWL off a rather dusty book shelf, and the fight was in that version.  However, since I do not have an original hardback copy I don't know if it was added later or not.

And finally third, in my opinion, for many (probably not all) producers the impact of piracy on revenue (reflected in production costs) has taken its toll on video content, both in build-up and in third-party participation.  I suspect that, for most producers, the longer a video and the more ladies in that video, the more the cost to produce it.  10-15 years ago when piracy was considerably less impactful on sales numbers for a given video release, producers probably had video sales that covered their production costs and provided enough of a profit to encourage them to remain in business.  With piracy now having a "significant" impact on video sales to the producer, unless they have moved to a new business model (sponsorships and very restricted sales distribution) they won't be producing videos much longer.

Only my opinions.

They face the same problem as Japanese animation studios and distributors, operating a narrow market in a broad market space. If producers would sponsor a section on clips4sale (an example, not an endorsement, I'm in no way affiliated) dedicated to introducing ideas that can be crowdfunded, the model would probably work, since a large swath of piracy happens for the reason of them being widely available. We've seen it time and again that if a monthly price is affordable that allows access to all content, people prefer it to piracy.
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Offline lumberjack66

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2020, 08:55:05 PM »
I think the porn business is like just about any other business.  They produce what people buy.  So for example California Wildcats did the scripted thing and they also did the pure competitive thing with Video Sports Limited.  My guess is California Wildcats did much better as they abandoned Video Sports Limited pretty quick.  Obviously most of the women they had working for them were not trained actresses and largely their plots were ridiculous.  Carnage in the Cage comes to mind.  Obviously writing even a bad script, getting the props and cast together, and filming it takes time and money.  Again, Carnage in the cage had like 6 actors total, a cage large enough for the women to fight, cave girl costumes as well as costumes for other cast, and sort of a script.  That all cost time and money.  So when they looked at their sales and saw Violent Grudge 3 cost half as much to make as Carnage in the Cage and sold just as much, they started doing less plots.  Eventually they must have noticed their lesbian/sexfighting selling much better than their catfight videos so they eventually moved to that.  It is just business.  People vote with their dollars.  Smart businesses give people what they want. 

I know we all have a pretty diverse interest in this stuff.  I write stories with lots of build up because I like it.  Some people like it.  Some people fast forward to just the fight.  Some probably don't read it at all because I am "too wordy".   I suspect the majority prefer the quick description of the women and straight into the brawl.  Which is fine if you are doing what you like or doing it for fun, but if you want to make a living you have to give people what they want.  If the majority of us liked seeing a couple guys cheering their women on, every single video would have that.  Just my $0.02.
I love catfights and chatting.  Look me up on trillian at ljack66   (I think... just figuring Trillian out)

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Offline wm1776

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2020, 01:28:58 AM »
I also like the build up and storyline in a catfight. To me, it makes it more real. Was the slapping In California Wildcats real? Did they really slap each other’s face or was it all an act?

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Offline razzel43

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2020, 07:26:22 AM »
I am fan of a good scenario also.  Having the women catfight in front of their man with him watching is a good one . Intimate living room setting where two rivals show up to fight for their man, with plenty of trash talk and clothes ripping. CLASSIC. Two of my all time favorite California Wildcats  videos are Violent Grudge 3 & 4. Carla ( aka Venus ) and Teala fighting for their man. I have presented the idea of reproducing the Violent Grudge scenario to several current producers. Hoping to not only get the HD quality, but the aggressiveness of face slapping, hair pulling and clothes ripping in an aggressive catfight. Seems like WBI would be a good fit for this type of scenario catfight. I think the WE BRING IT girls could pull it off.

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Offline Martin Beswick

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Re: Something missing from most scripted catfight and wrestling videos
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2020, 04:01:59 PM »
A few comments:

First, I have always enjoyed the build-up that precedes a good catfight.  Having said that, the build-up needs to be believable (a context that "makes sense" in real-life), not too long (2-3 minutes works for me) and not obviously scripted dialogue (the more naturally direct and catty the better).

Second, I pulled a paperback copy of FRWL off a rather dusty book shelf, and the fight was in that version.  However, since I do not have an original hardback copy I don't know if it was added later or not.

And finally third, in my opinion, for many (probably not all) producers the impact of piracy on revenue (reflected in production costs) has taken its toll on video content, both in build-up and in third-party participation.  I suspect that, for most producers, the longer a video and the more ladies in that video, the more the cost to produce it.  10-15 years ago when piracy was considerably less impactful on sales numbers for a given video release, producers probably had video sales that covered their production costs and provided enough of a profit to encourage them to remain in business.  With piracy now having a "significant" impact on video sales to the producer, unless they have moved to a new business model (sponsorships and very restricted sales distribution) they won't be producing videos much longer.

Only my opinions.

That's what I've been thinking as well.  The remaining fetish producers can only logically afford to spend so much on a video, with the exception of Kink and the European outlets most of the companies still out there are essentially small businesses involving a videographer plus paid on-camera talent so they have limited options.  I can't imagine there would be any real profit now on the costs of creating something like CW's two part ]"Newcomer" videos that featured multiple couples and participants on screen.  When that content was only available as a $50 dvd there was money to be made  - now it would be sold online for $20 and pop up for free on Pornhub days later.

There are porn companies like Brazzers, Deeper, Vixen, etc that have created a subscription model that allows them to feature more talent and higher production values/scenarios -- but their more mainstream appeal means they can bring in the $ to not only create the videos, but to also pay the support staff to flag and delete anytime their videos might appear online.

Personally I'd just be thrilled to see more videos in which the women even just acknowledge the camera/viewers. Those little moments before the match when both women address the camera with a little competitive trash talk before the match or - even more exciting/rare - a scenario in which "you" are the one operating the camera shooting the action and thus the ladies can occasionally address you directly.

Al Bundy knows what I'm talking about ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKEN6JLyb7M