[Kiva]

Finally, the next few posts will deal specifically with female fight stories. Next time, we’ll talk about fight action sequences. After that, we’ll discuss weaving eroticism into your story (maybe, LOL).

The present topic is choosing a style and reason for the fight. I will not include sexfights/titfights in this post as I see them as separate topics. I will really need a lot of help with this one. Everyone is invited to contribute. You need not be a writer.

Occasionally, I hear from a member asking me to help with ideas for a story. The hopeful author has characters and a fight in mind but struggles with coming up with a way to get them into a conflict, then a fight which doesn’t seem silly or make the characters seem clinically insane. I tell them that their story does not need to be believable. Their goal is to make readers willing to suspend their disbelief. There’s a big difference.

REALITY VS. FANTASY

Imagine if I decided to write the most realistic catfight story ever, i.e. a story that matches a typical fight in the real world between two women who want to hurt each other. What would I use as source material? I am very adept at navigating search engines for peer-reviewed research data. So, I would first ask if there is actual data on women who get into physical fights. It turns out there is (kinda, sorta). Most of the data comes from law enforcement and correctional system data on women who commit aggressive and violent acts, including fighting. Such activity is associated with poverty, high crime neighborhoods, alcohol and substance abuse, mental health disorders, low education and victimization of childhood, domestic, and sexual abuse. Based on my experience in hospitals, this is definitely true.

Other data is even more disturbing. The CDC has been collecting data on physical fights in high schools since at least 1990s and separates it by boys and girls. Kids (including girls) who fight tend to have poor grades, anxiety, depression, suicide attempts and feeling of victimization.

It is not my purpose to send anyone on a guilt trip. My point is that this is rarely ever the reality we write about. We create worlds where the fighters are who we want them to be, and we want action that’s exciting and sexy, without the ugly psychosocial baggage. As Bob Ross would say, “Its your world. You can create anything you want.” (I sold my second oil painting!)

This brings us back to suspension of disbelief. Your story need not be realistic, although you might decide to include elements of realism. Or it may take place in a fantasy world inhabited by fairies and unicorns. Your aim is for readers to buy into your world and go for the ride.

CHOOSING A FIGHT STYLE

A visitor to FCF will quickly see that fights are categorized into styles (catfight, wrestling, boxing, MMA, sexfight/titfight, etc). You have probably already decided a style for your story. Here are a few thoughts.

What is a Catfight?
As I understand it, the traditional sense of the word “catfight” is a fight between two untrained women with little or no fighting experience or knowledge, instinctively employing tactics of hair pulling, scratching, or even biting. It seems to me that in recent years, the term has been broadened to include just about any kind of conflict between women, including organized sports. In the 1950s, the term “catfight” might have conjured up mental images of June Cleaver and Harriet Nelson, in their house dresses and aprons, rolling around digging their nails inro each other. Contrast with today, with women making large gains in traditional men’s roles (Did you know that half the U.S. graduating doctors are women?) and the fact that women’s combat sports are flourishing, female fighting can now mean a number of different things. As a writer you have a smorgasbord of styles from which to choose.

Choosing a Style
Some of the common styles that you will see in female fight fiction stories
Spontaneous hostile fight – perhaps the most common. A conflict arises between two women. The situation explodes and a fight ensues on site.
Arranged hostile fight – as above, except the situation doesn’t allow a fight on the spot (work, public place, etc.). The combatants agree on a specific place and time to settle it.
Spontaneous “friendly” fight – two women, often discussing wrestling or other form of fighting, have a friendly sparring match, which often turns unfriendly.
Arranged “friendly” fight – women or couples agree to meet in a gym, hotel, home, etc. for an encounter, with fetish overtones. They may know each other or have met on the internet. Often arranged by husbands who watch and are turned on by the spectacle. Can also become unfriendly quickly.
Semi-organized fight events – Think of apartment wrestling where women are recruited to compete against each other. Other variations could include a company that produces vids and live events. Clandestine secret societies, tournaments with lucrative prizes and underground clubs are other spin-offs.
Organized events – boxing, mma, etc.

Final thought:
As sinclairfan pointed out on an earlier post, your choice of fight style and action itself should reflect the background of the fighters. If it is the first fight for both women, I think a wild catfight is the default style as other styles require some training.

WHY ARE THEY FIGHTING?
For some writers (myself included), that can be the most difficult part of crafting your story. This is especially true if it is between two women who hate each other. One of the perks of FyreCracka’s catpin universe is that no reason is required, which allows us to focus on characters and plot. However, in most stories, there needs to be reasons and motivations for fighting.

Hostile Fight (spontaneous or arranged): Motivations
This is perhaps the most difficult since it requires a good amount of tension leading to the physical conflict. For this type of story to work, at least one party must feel she has been seriously wronged. You will notice there are popular tropes used repeatedly. A few of them are:
Wife vs mistress – probably most common. Usually doesn’t work for me. If a man cheats on me, he is not worth fighting for.
Wife vs. ex – Might work if the ex is psychotic, as in a typical Lifetime Movie Network (LMN) plot.
Coworkers – a woman is promoted by using nefarious tactics like lying about another coworker. A boss who awards a promotion to the winner of a fight? No thanks.
Bullying – office in the workplace, but can be in many different situations.
Neighbor conflicts – may involve kids (more below), gossip (below), land disputes, loud trashy neighbors, etc.

Inspirations From Real Life
Most of my stories are inspired by my real-life experience. I’m often asked if I ever saw a fight between two adult women. The answer is yes, but thankfully, only a few times. I will explain more below. The truth is fights between women who do not have the risk factories in the research studies I mention very rarely fight. However, I will say that women can be very aggressive and try to hurt each other in different ways. I have seen numerous occasions where friendships and family relationships were permanently ruined. I will list below the common situations that I have personally witnessed.

1.   Kids – Threatening another woman’s child is the quickest way to get any meek and mild female charge at you with her claws out. We are all mama bears when it comes to our kids. I suggest you do not write a story about a child being threatened. However, more common triggers are criticizing a woman’s parenting skills, talking about a child’s bad behavior. These are serious killers.
2.   Gossip – Huge. Very few things end friendships like finding out you were bad-mouthed by someone who was your friend.
3.   Social isolation – Dear friends, this is how women fight in real life. It begins early in girls and sadly continues into adulthood with some. It’s the practice of deliberately trying to end someone’s friendships with other people. It goes beyond gossip. It’s throwing a party and inviting everyone from her social group, but not her. Or planning events with her friends while excluding her. It’s subtle digs on social media that undermine her that only a few people will catch.
4.   Mistress – this is generally not much of a trigger of fights as you might expect. Yes, I’ve heard women say things like “I want to punch her in the face.” But most of the hurt is directed at the husband. Women do not say things like, “I will prove I have the better pussy,” unless they have serious self-image problems. But in fantasy, this is always a good fallback reason for a fight. But yes, I have seen affairs end marriage and friendships.
5.   Work – Bullying can be a serious problem, though most large places of employment now have anti-bullying programs in place. I’ve seen employees steal credit from others and exploit people to get ahead. I personally have broken off friendships with such people.
6.   Family – A few years ago, I broke up a fight between two extended female family members. I won’t go into the details other than it involved long standing grievances each had for each other. And alcohol was involved. Families can be divided over money, inheritances, perceived slights, religion, substance abuse, failed expectations, etc.


The “Friendly” Fight: Motivations
1.   Two friends compete with each other motivated by their competitive nature. Usually escalates into an all-out brawl. (See rin753’s The Gymnasts series)
2.   Two women meet each other for the first time via online, through husbands, etc. Motivation includes each woman wanting to test herself, looking for excitement, and of course, turning on her husband in a sexually charged encounter. (see rin753’s The Diner series)

The Semi-Organized Fight: Motivations
A few years ago, I learned of the world of Apartment House Wrestling in the 1970s – early 80s Sports Review Wrestling magazine. I’m convinced that many of the concepts of stories today can be traced to this iconic literature. The female characters were from all walks of life. Their motivations varied and included:
1.   Desperate need for money
2.   Need to prove herself
3.   Promises of fame and fortune (acting, modeling career, etc)
4.   Battling personal demons
5.   Two enemies agree to settle their differences in a match. I’m sure there were many more. I only found about 7-8 stories.
A lot of these plot devices still work and can be applied to all kinds of variations of the AHW concept. Bonus points if the spectators are all mysterious wealthy and powerful men.

I undoubtedly missed a lot in this post, so I am inviting all to contribute.

Thank you!

[sinclairfan]

Great, great stuff.  So much to think about.

My only protest is that Kiva's Wife-vs-mistress and Wife-vs--(Lifetime Style Psychotic)-Ex taxonomy unnecessarily overlooks the wonderful (for writers) plethora of scenarios by which two ordinary, realistic, everyday women can "fall into" a scorching hot love triangle.

College girlfriend vs hometown high school girlfriend:  College boy goes away for school (or job training or the military or the Peace Corps), and his hometown sweetie encourages him to "have fun".  He does, and returns home...... arm-in-arm with the woman he had fun WITH.

Main girlfriend vs Side Chick:  None of the 3 in the triangle have agreed to exclusivity.  Yet.  And the hierarchy who which gf is the alpha and which is the side chick is .... ambiguous.

Post breakup bender:  A couple mutually breaks up.  The guy sows his wild oats, and finds a new gf.  The girl sows her wild oats, and decides the grass isn't any greener.  She want the ex back.  Too bad, sweetie.

Home wife vs Work wife:  The man has a totally (physically) chaste work relationship with a female colleague.  But over years it develops into an emotional affair, including texting about the Home wife's nagging.  And with the pandemic, the texting escalates into Zoom calls.  Then topless Zoom calls.  Etc.

Wife vs Retail Female Employee--the man pitches in at home with the grocery shopping.  The divorced, lonely, struggling checkout woman (or manager) is helpful .... REALLY helpful.

Travel Sport Carpools--One Dad, one Mom sitting long hours in the basketball bleachers.  Alone in the parking lot minivan waiting for practice to let out.  Lots of temptation, even if both are married to others..... for now.

WRITE WHAT YOU KNOW, people.  There's a simmering love triangle in your life right now.  Observe it.  Then extrapolate what would happen AFTER the sex happens.  Because it's 25 times hotter than the original sex was.

And BOTH women are willing participants.

[Kiva]

Thank you, @sinclairfan. All really good ideas. I especially like the “work wife/home wife” and the traveling sports team couple. You touched on the concept of “emotional cheating.”

Which situation do you think is more hurtful to a married woman?

A. Her husband has a one night fling with a woman he met while out of town and will never see again.

B. Her husband strikes up a friendship with a woman. They frequently text and speak by phone. They share a lot of personal information including his deepest fears and dreams and private matters he’s never told his wife. The relationship is not sexually consummated.

Most women would say B is more hurtful as it is a betrayal of intimacy which is worse than a purely sexual encounter.

I suspect most of us who are married have had experiences when we gave TMI to a friend of the opposite gender, then said to ourselves, “Did I just cheat?” The question is where should the line be drawn? These do have great potential for stories.

I guess my problem with wife vs mistress stories is that most of them are so unimaginative with the mistresses portrayed as nutcases who say things like “I will win your man’s cock and prove I have the superior pussy,” obviously written by men.

The reality is far different. The mistress usually thinks she is the rightful soulmate and the man’s (or hers) marriage was a bad decision that needs to be remedied. She realizes the wife will be hurt, but thinks in the end, everyone will be better off. Often, she is a victim of the man’s lies and is being emotionally manipulated.
 
I might enjoy a love triangle story if the characters  and plot are interesting and have some substance to them. I thought Phoenix_Falcone did a nice different take on an affair with “Room 2012”.

So who knows? Maybe fictional Kiva from KFJ will have an affair with a married man.
 

[sinclairfan]

Thank you, @sinclairfan. All really good ideas. I especially like the “work wife/home wife” and the traveling sports team couple. You touched on the concept of “emotional cheating.”

Which situation do you think is more hurtful to a married woman?

A. Her husband has a one night fling with a woman he met while out of town and will never see again.


 

Ahhhh, but Kiva .... you forget ..... he WILL see Ms. Out of Town again.

<> What if the Out of Town seductress performed a sex act on him (oral? Etc) which Wifey has refused to since the Honeymoon phase?  Or worse, that Wifey used to save for birthdays and Christmas Eve.  The "magic" of those special days is now permanently ruined.

<> Wifey will always want details of her rival's 'Backstory' (whadaya know--it always comes down to Backstory):  was she older or younger than me?  Was she prettier than me?  Taller or shorter, stockier or lighter?  If the same weight class:  who would win a fight between her and me?

<> Who propositioned who? 

<> Was there foreplay?  Or just fucking?  (And which is worse? / more upsetting?)

<> What's HER relationship status?  If single, is she hoping for something with my husband?  Even if companionship?  Even if much later?  If stable ..... do I flirt with HER man now to sully it?  Two can play THAT game, hun.

<> Does she do this a lot?  If so, has it (i.e. another other woman) ever come back and bit her in the ass?  [Figuratively, and literally.]  If so, woulda loved to be a fly on THAT wall.

<> Does SHE think these thoughts about ME?  Is she at all curious about the fight outcome?  Because I can handle myself--she better realize that.  [Although those nail rakes down my husband's back DO look formidable.]

<> Is that 847 area code number on my husband's work area colleague?  Or is it HER?  Should I dial it and listen for the voice that answers the voice mail greeting?  Or if someone .... a female .... answers, should I hang up?  Or carry on a conversation?  Introduce myself for some girltalk?

<> This LinkedIn connection of his from the area:  is THAT her?  Pretty picture.  Looks like a bitch, tho.

<> He's been masturbating a lot lately?  I wonder:  to her?  to me?  To her VERSUS me?

<> Because everytime I've masturbated lately, that's what it's been to:  Her vs Me.  No rules.

[coachzzz]

First, fictional Kiva should not intentionally have an affair with a married man in the KFJ.   She is too principled for that.   But could she "accidentally" fall for someone who she later finds out is married?   No, because once she finds out she would rightly blame the guy for deceiving her, not the other woman.   So, no affair for fictional Kiva. 

I think the "friendly" fights which escalate due to personal pride and competitive natures are some of the best material to work with.  It also allows for many different combinations of women (colleagues, friends, acquaintances, even women who have just met) to get into a scrap with each other.   The intensity of the relationship between the two women grows from a low flame to a hot fire over time, and perhaps over multiple battles.   Many of the reasons Kiva mentioned above can be the initial start of conflict, but the conflict can grow beyond the initial reason and ultimately become pure competition between the two women.   Pride is a very potent emotion, and it can turn a simple situation into a very complex one. 

[sinclairfan]

@coachzzz:  While I acknowledge, and share, your admiration of Kiva's principles, anyone woman can "slip" under the right (wrong?) mixture of
<> circumstances (have you ever noticed stag married cutting loose at wedding receptions), Black Tie hospital fundraisers, doctors' offices Christmas parties, patients with a sob story, you name it
<> alcohol, and
<> opportunity for "alone time", even if it's in a restroom stall.
Not to mention, the marriage could be "just" a common law marriage (long term shacking up), one without religious sanction, a Vegas wedding, whatever.

In short:  go for it Kiva!  Get your adultery on!

On friendly fights:  I like it best when the initial friendship is kinda awkward and forced to start with.  Then, when the gloves come off, both women hiss at each other that it was never a friendly encounter they were after all anyways.
 Neighborhood cul de sac chick fights work well with this subtext as well.  That's why the most vicious post-high school fights were always between former "friends"--they were never really friends the whole time.

[MikeHales67]

I think the motivation part is something that as a writer you tend to worry about, but you as a reader not so much. I think it's all Suspension of Disbelief I as a writer promise to do an entertaining story if you as a reader promise not to get too nit-picky. I speak as a person with a Physics degree who loves Science-Fiction. Virtually without exception the science they spout is total bollocks, but I love it anyway.

Just yo complicate the picture on motivations, the reasons we give for doing sometime are not nessarily the reasons we do it.

https://thesituationist.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/the-situation-of-reason-2/

The automatic brain makes a decision, the conscious brain justifies it after the fact. I do think you can have fun, so the characters give reason x as a fight, but to an outside observer it's obvious it's reason y.

Must admit I've never been impressed by the jealously angle, and never used it, mainly because I can't understand how anyone could possibly find men physically attractive. I understand that this is an opinion not shared by half the humans on the planet but I cannot write about anyone wanting a man's body with a straight face!

I think as well there's a lot of mileage to be made from subverting the trope. So instead of a hot sultry night in an expensive apartment in LA, have a wet car park in England. Instead of fighting to see who gets the job have the employers use the fight to evaluate the candidates under pressure. So the winner of the fight isn't necessarily the winner of the job.

[Phoenix_Falcone]

Thanks again Kiva for the shout out!  And as always another well thought out and interesting topic.

I think I'd probably push back on Mike's thought around the reader not worrying about motivation as much.  While my observation that readers are mostly here for the fight, I would say that the motivation for fighting is very, very high on the list of things people need to reconcile the fight.  For example, if I just described a fight, without explaining anything about it, just purely put the actions down, I'd suggest the majority would start asking "Why did they fight?"  "Who are they?"  etc.  Of course, could be wrong, but there needs to be a reason for people to fight, because the natural state of being is not fighting.  We'd be a much more unruly and violent society if everyone just fought each other for no reason all the time.

What I was getting at in the last thread was that, once people get the gist, there's probably a lot who would not read the nitty gritty, and prefer to skip to the action.  Which is fine.  But motivations are definitely important, especially because a lot of sub-kinks are based off those motivations.  How many times have we seen posts here where someone says "Oh yeah, I love when a mistress is defeated!" or "I love it when two family members go at it!"  etc etc.  In fact, after I released Life of Amy, I got a lot of comments from people about who should have fought who, and which fights were the best due to x motivation.

The suspension of belief comment is very true too.  I would extend it though by saying people do irrational things all the time, so while you may not act like that based on the situation, others may very well act like that.  Especially based on their upbringing, mental state, perceived value, etc etc.  This is where I find it most fun to write.  One way I've found to practice thinking about how a situation would escalate to a fight is to imagine something incredibly mundane, non-competitive and boring, and figuring out how to get the participants annoyed at each other to the point of fighting.

For example, two women are living in an apartment.  They decide to help each other wash the dishes.  Based purely on that, how would you get them to the point where they fight?

Jackie looked on as Lisa casually washed the dishes and put them on the sink.  Each time, a piece of food scrap was left on the plate or cup, forcing Jackie to wipe it off with the towel.  It was so typical of Lisa, she would always half-ass things.  While Jackie appreciated the help, Lisa never did anything properly around this apartment they shared.  After the fourth time of having to replace the towel as it was too dirty, Jackie complained to her roommate.  She didn't appreciate having her time wasted, and it was her apartment Lisa was renting, so she should treat it appropriately.

Lisa was always on the receiving end.  Jackie never gave her a break, it was always "You suck at this" or "You should do it that way."  She'd had enough.  She had tried to be nice about this because Jackie was her landlord, but that didn't give her the right to boss her around constantly.  She paid good money every month for this apartment, and she deserved to live in it how she wanted.  So when the complaint came this time, she snapped.

If you can take a mundane task/situation and turn it into a fight, you can definitely take an already heated situation and turn that into a fight.  Once again, this comes back to the topic of characterization.  Put yourself in the shoes of the character you're writing about.  Based on what you know about them, how do you think they would react to the situation at hand?  What emotions would they feel?

The motivation piece also lends itself to transforming and introducing a character's not so visible side.  For example, a character may exhibit normal everyday behavior in most situations, but deep down, they have a latent nasty side, and when they get into the situation of a fight, they really try to punish their opponent because of a hidden malice they don't show normally.  Or, on the flip side, a normally arrogant character who generally shows little in the way of concern for others, but once they win a fight, their competitive nature brings out a hidden sense of honor and compassion.

I also generally think the best stories are the ones where there is some justification for the fight.  As in, two mothers arguing over a situation involving their children wouldn't necessarily just fight.  There are ways of dealing with the situation otherwise.  But over time, repeated breaking of the unwritten rules of engagement (sniping each other behind the other's back, gossip, different interpretations of an agreement or truce, etc), means each of those other ways are exhausted, until finally they have no choice.

One motivation not really explored here, too, is the idea that women are commanded to fight.  And not so much in a sexual sub/dom sense.  Obviously this can be shaky ground and hard to make sexual, but there could totally be times when two combatants are from different countries, military divisions or even sports teams.  They don't necessarily have anything against the opponent personally, but realize they need to step up and fight for the greater good, the reputation of their team, or simply because their commanding officer/team leader told them to.  It's not necessarily their choice, but it is their duty.

I've had an idea floating around in my head for some time about a story where two countries decide to settle a long standing war that was going nowhere with a fight between two female representatives.  The result of their duel decides the fate of the two nations.  It's a ridiculous concept, but the motivation is clear.  Win the duel and be regarded as a hero, lose and your entire nation loses a war.

I could go on, but definitely there is much to discuss here.  Plenty of ideas spring to mind.  Especially when blending concepts.  I'll save that for another post I think at this stage...

[sinclairfan]

I've had an idea floating around in my head for some time about a story where two countries decide to settle a long standing war that was going nowhere with a fight between two female representatives.  The result of their duel decides the fate of the two nations.  It's a ridiculous concept, but the motivation is clear.  Win the duel and be regarded as a hero, lose and your entire nation loses a war.

Given the obsession in the U.S. with not having televised athletic events end in ties, you could use a 10-minute f-vs-f battle as a replacement for the ever-more-elaborate tie-breaking schemes which are being improvised.

The most natural is college football, where the alternating start-with-the-ball-on-the-other-team's-25-yard-line, which can last almost an hour, could be replaced with choosing cheerleaders on each side to settle things more directly.  (Have never seen this explored yet in an actual story, but it's been alluded to in discussions.)

It also seems like it would get better ratings than the tedious tiebreakers in other sports:
<> Penalty shot shootouts in soccer.
<> Breakaway shootouts in hockey.
<> Green-white-checkered overtime laps in NASCAR.
<> 18 playoff holes the next day in golf.
<> Extra innings in baseball, deemed so tedious to younger viewers that teams are granted a free runner on second base at the start of every extra inning.
<> Best-of-7 tiebreakers in tennis.

[Phoenix_Falcone]

I've had an idea floating around in my head for some time about a story where two countries decide to settle a long standing war that was going nowhere with a fight between two female representatives.  The result of their duel decides the fate of the two nations.  It's a ridiculous concept, but the motivation is clear.  Win the duel and be regarded as a hero, lose and your entire nation loses a war.

Given the obsession in the U.S. with not having televised athletic events end in ties, you could use a 10-minute f-vs-f battle as a replacement for the ever-more-elaborate tie-breaking schemes which are being improvised.

The most natural is college football, where the alternating start-with-the-ball-on-the-other-team's-25-yard-line, which can last almost an hour, could be replaced with choosing cheerleaders on each side to settle things more directly.  (Have never seen this explored yet in an actual story, but it's been alluded to in discussions.)

It also seems like it would get better ratings than the tedious tiebreakers in other sports:
<> Penalty shot shootouts in soccer.
<> Breakaway shootouts in hockey.
<> Green-white-checkered overtime laps in NASCAR.
<> 18 playoff holes the next day in golf.
<> Extra innings in baseball, deemed so tedious to younger viewers that teams are granted a free runner on second base at the start of every extra inning.
<> Best-of-7 tiebreakers in tennis.

Now, that is a very interesting idea.  The idea of a sports related fight has flashed in and out of my head often.  Perhaps I'll take a crack at the story...

Certainly agree that it would make some of those sports much more interesting.  I personally cannot stand baseball, but I would definitely tune in if there was a catfight tie breaker...

[BarbaraUK]

I've glanced through a lot of the follow-up posts and I have to say I don't agree with them.

People are people and there are less fundamental differences between the sexes than most imagine.

You go to many MMA classes these days and a third to a half of the participants might be women, with the same going for a lot of other martial arts.

There are still societal expectations of women that constrict them but as individuality grows in importance these are receding.

The idea I would advance in creating believable female characters is creating an environment for them that nurtures why they might want to take the extreme actions you envisage.

I'll give you a real life example, meet Eleanor 'Ellie' Wright, an enthusiastic amateur flyweight amateur MMA fighter  from Merseyside, a gritty blue collar part of North Western England: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=eXmeC8D-EGI

Then one day, Ellie did this: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/mma-fighter-lurked-womens-toilets-27138275

[Kiva]

Hi Barbara,

In my post on backstories, I mentioned your beautifully downbeat work on Poacher 4 and I expressed a wish you would return. Who says prayers don’t get answered 

My goodness, Ellie Wright belongs in prison for a disgraceful assault. I hope she can turn her life around.

You raise some good points. In my town, all of the MMA/BJJ  schools encourage women to join. At least one is exclusively women. Our high school has a girls wrestling team with a full roster. It wasn’t long ago that this would have been unthinkable. With shifting gender roles and more women learning to fight, I think the traditional catfight  concept diminishes in relevance.

As Ellie showed us, a trained fighter (man or woman) is not immune to making terrible decisions. So yes, stories examining factors that influence people to do what they do is fertile ground to explore.

[sinclairfan]

Hi Barbara,

In my post on backstories, I mentioned your beautifully downbeat work on Poacher 4 and I expressed a wish you would return. Who says prayers don’t get answered 

My goodness, Ellie Wright belongs in prison for a disgraceful assault. I hope she can turn her life around.

You raise some good points. In my town, all of the MMA/BJJ  schools encourage women to join. At least one is exclusively women. Our high school has a girls wrestling team with a full roster. It wasn’t long ago that this would have been unthinkable. With shifting gender roles and more women learning to fight, I think the traditional catfight  concept diminishes in relevance.

As Ellie showed us, a trained fighter (man or woman) is not immune to making terrible decisions. So yes, stories examining factors that influence people to do what they do is fertile ground to explore.

I'm old enough to remember the mid-1970s wave of muggings of working women on commuter rail systems in the northeastern U.S.  One response in the suburbs was for local suburban police departments to organize evening "self-defense" classes for frightened women commuters, or housewives home alone all day.

The courses started with the Tae Kwon Do techniques of carrying yourself with such an air of exterior confidence in your posture that you wouldn't get jumped in the first place.  But the frisky response of the women attendees was the Bart Simpson-esque:  "Yo, Sinse.  I already know how to NOT hit an attacker.  When do we break out the nunchuks?". 

And things got REALLY frisky in the second half of class, when the mats were rolled out and women were invited to test out what they had learned .... on each other.  The "bouts" started using standard Tae Kwon Do techniques.... but progressed to hairpulling and slapping by the 120-second mark of any even matchup.

If only cell phone cameras had existed back then.

[Phoenix_Falcone]

Hi Barbara,

In my post on backstories, I mentioned your beautifully downbeat work on Poacher 4 and I expressed a wish you would return. Who says prayers don’t get answered 

My goodness, Ellie Wright belongs in prison for a disgraceful assault. I hope she can turn her life around.

You raise some good points. In my town, all of the MMA/BJJ  schools encourage women to join. At least one is exclusively women. Our high school has a girls wrestling team with a full roster. It wasn’t long ago that this would have been unthinkable. With shifting gender roles and more women learning to fight, I think the traditional catfight  concept diminishes in relevance.

As Ellie showed us, a trained fighter (man or woman) is not immune to making terrible decisions. So yes, stories examining factors that influence people to do what they do is fertile ground to explore.

With all due respect, I'm not so sure I agree here.

Sure, there are plenty of women taking up MMA/etc, but that a) doesn't mean all women do and/or will, and b) certainly doesn't mean the traditional catfight concept goes away.  One of the most important reasons why the idea of women, or men for that matter, fighting is so appealing to people, is that primal urge we have psychologically.  That doesn't go away just because the combatants are trained.  Arguably, it's not even really the violence that triggers it, even two people arguing can get some people going.

I'm happy to be corrected here, but I'm not really sure I understand what Barbara's point is if I'm honest.  Ultimately I concede that almost nothing I write about will ever happen.  It's fantasy for a reason.  There's also plenty of ways to write believable characters within an unbelievable setting.  That's happened a million times in novels, TV and cinema.  Not all women need MMA training to fight, and not all women want it either.  But fights based on passion, jealousy, anger and frustration happen constantly in day to day life.  Don't just take my word for it, look at the news, or youtube, or the internet in general.

I would agree though, that stories that try and dive into why women fight could be conceptually interesting.  Whether they would be appreciated on a site like this is another thing entirely though.  I'm sure it's probably hard writing something like that and still making it sexy for the masses...

[sinclairfan]

Back when the original 'Dynasty' came out in 1979, Al Corley played Steven Carrington, Blake's gay son (it was still semi-scandalous in 1979 to be out).  He was learning the family business as a wild-catter out in the oil fields, and was unwinding one night at a western saloon.  A drunk co-worker challenged him to a barfight, and Al/Steven hesitatingly looked for a help to a buddy/mentor.  "I can't help you out of this one, Steven," came the reply.  Al/Steven COULD duck the fight .... but only with a corresponding loss of face.

Women, in Western society, don't have that binary choice, even in 2024, when called out.  Door Number Three ('Ladies don't fight!") remains a viable option.

And yet.... some still choose to take up the gauntlet and fight.

Why do they make that risky choice?

Searching for that answer is what this thread is all about.  At least, that's my two cents.