Yes for sure and I thank you for your nice detailed response. I meant to watch before posting so my facts were straight but I had to choose the opportunity so now I have watched it and I say it is a strenuous roughhousing with missed opportunities, if the intent were to wipe out the opponent. Using Magazine 13 as my source, I find:
1:47:42 a solid backhand by Andi followed by a good slap from Michelle
1:48:20 several solid breast punches by M
1:50::00 good slaps by both but no damage
1:50:45 criminal missed opportunity by Michelle that could have led to an early win
1:51:29 a good face shot by M followed by another missed opportunity to close things out
1:52:22 I noticed Andi looked ripe for the kill. Time to quit the cancer sticks.
1:52:50. M missed yet again with A face down defenseless with M sitting on her
1:54:10 M has A on the couch but wastes time on ineffective body shots
1:55:40 M lands a solid head shot followed by a mutual exciting exchange
1:56:05. Two good hits to the skull and Andi gives
I never noticed any of this before and how one sided it was. I was captivated by their sexiness and the attitudes displayed plus the roughhousing. Perhaps Crystal was trying to showcase Michelle? Both had done excellent hard fights and well, who knows. Anyway I would support Rich’s take on this catfight. I like the idea that they were friends. They sure did a.nice job convincing otherwise. Thanks again, Rich!
Tonight I went back as well to compare to another fight I own which I know is real—I compared it to SoCal Nancy vs Mary. I think the issue here is what a lot of people are missing is that when the people in question aren’t trained fighters most of their attacks on one another are going to be ineffective on one another.
When I was comparing it to Mary vs Nancy I noticed a lot of the same things. The only way I can actually maybe be swayed is there are a few times Michelle had Andi in a position where she could land a few blows that could’ve gone unanswered but in the heat of the moment I don’t think someone who isn’t a trained is thinking like that.
Comparing the two fights; both are similar in regards to the girls are bigger. So naturally they tire a lot quicker than say someone who was thinner. Their punches seem to be mostly ineffective with one another. Michelle’s attacks in her fight with Andi largely don’t do anything until she’s able to get her in a headlock at the end and begins raining them down.
In Mary vs Nancy almost all of Mary’s punches onto the bigger Nancy do absolutely nothing. It’s not until Mary begins to try and hip toss Nancy does anything significant in that fight occur. I guess I just disagree that it was staged in Andi vs Michelle. Unless someone has some kind of insider knowledge here I think this fight actually fits in well with the other fights the 2 women have had at Crystal.
Michelle never really can land her punches against grapplers. She always had to try and mount an opponent from behind or on top before her punches really could impact them because it’s clear she had no idea how to make effective connections without throwing haymakers. Compare that to the match she lost against the more slender black woman (not the bigger black woman where she just gritted her way to victory) but Michelle lost because she couldn’t handle a woman who could grab her, immobilize her, then begin landing punches against her. The same applies in this fight. Michele is clearly the aggressor throughout the entire match. But her strikes do nothing to Andi because Michele is only able to secure solid mounts against Andi a few times and even then they don’t last long because Andi has enough strength to get out of the hold.
Andi on the other hand was never a striker at all. In all of her previous fights at Crystal I think she threw a few punches but they literally had nothing in them. She had no idea how to hit someone. What she could do is use her weight and hips to her advantage as she would constantly try and throw her opponents and collapse on top of them or scissor them into submission. She never actually retired someone because of punches; it was always a combination of she trips them, then drives them to the floor hard, wraps her legs around them and begins slapping or punching them.
I don’t think there’s even ever any mortal danger as rich points out. I think the only mortal danger fight I ever seen (and it’s kinda scary, not a turn on) was the brutal Japanese bikini fights where the girls would punch and basically boot the other girl to the face. Those are mortal danger fights I can think of.
But I don’t think this is a work at all. Or at least from rewatching it again it doesn’t seem like a work. It looks no different than any of the modern day real fights that the heavier women have today. Again my comparison here is go buy Nancy vs Mary from SoCal and compare the two. The issue here is perhaps there maybe was a rule about closed fist to faces but then again at the end it’s pretty clear they’re literally punching each other in the head.
Even if that were the case just because you eliminate closed fist punching does that not make a fight real? IIRC Suitefights started blocking scissors for a bit because they would turn fights into European DWW fights which often become very dull. Phat Pharra I’m pretty sure took it a step further and banned ankle locks, and hair pulling for a bit too because it makes the matches boring. (Which surprisingly I actually agree with; if your goal is hard hitting competitive fights, hair pulling, chokes, and ankle locks should be banned) I don’t think that makes the matches any less real. A lot of the producers now also have the 2 women agree to to no face punching. I don’t think that makes the fight any less real. I mean unless your standard for real vs faked is comparing it to a street fight like the one stripper fight in the locker room, the one in the parking lot.
Then that would meet the definition. Scripted to me implies there’s a predetermined outcome. I just can’t see that here. Especially when you compare Andi’s other matches considering her goal was basically do what wildcat Kelli does and use her weight to basically immobilize her opponents then just use catfighting tactics to win. But in this case Michelle was stronger and more fit than Andi was and that shows because Andi gets gassed midway through the fight. She was expecting the same type of deal she had with the short haired woman where she could impose her weight on Michele but Michele had enough strength to throw her off and even overpower her.
Also I mean I think I should’ve rephrased my initial statement that it was even; it was even with regards to the fact that no one got dominated like we see in so many fights. It’s clear Michele is winning and if there were rounds and scoring there’s no doubt she’d be ahead in points, but at no point did I think Andi was getting absolutely schooled like a bunch of other fights.
Another Crystal fight I think that’s comparable here is Rain vs Misty(?) in the fight you have 2 clear novices who really don’t know what to do or how to throw anything. It’s not until the end when one girl clearly couldn’t win via shit talk and some slapping that her opponent just flipped her on her back and started slapping her. Amateur controlled street fighting is what we’re talking about here so naturally there’s gonna be some rules.
I think the biggest comparison here is while this isn’t like the Queen of the Hood series from way back in the early 2000’s this isn’t Joan Wise either where there’s rolling around, looks real, but ultimately isn’t. I mean by these definitions it seems to me ECNWC should be regarded as staged too. There’s no mortal danger in any of those fights but none of them to my knowledge are scripted.
Monica vs Mia has rules and the girls actually don’t really know how to throw slaps or punches but it can appear scripted but that’s because the only thing they’re trying to do is stretch and hair pull to victory. Tracey vs Traja (I forget her name lol) is the same deal neither girl actually slaps or goes for privates but in the end just puts the loser in a pin hold and stretches her to submission.
Savannah vs Tia has next to no punching allowed (I’m guessing no punching) but it’s clear it’s a real fight as they hair pull and body slam each other. All of Jemmas fights don’t have face punching or mortally wounding their opponents yet all are very much real fights.
I kind of don’t understand the mortally wounding bit as the definition of what determines a real fight vs a scripted fight here. Because that would imply fights we know to be not scripted through interviews with the producers and women then suddenly become fake? Underground Girlfight is scripted matches? I think there’s rules with a few and I suspect the matches with Bambi, and Kink are scripted but there’s fights with Komodo that are not scripted in the least bit.
Again I guess this all seems to be dancing around the notion that some are implying they have insider knowledge to the producer or the fighters that would indicate there was an agreement and discussion of who would win before hand; which would be news to I think a lot of people here, because otherwise I’m not sure how you can make that claim given all the fights prior and when comparing matches of women of similar size look almost indistinguishable.
